Shaun King, unfiltered ex-QB, is your NFL personnel consultant
Penix. Rodgers. Howell. Maye. Lance. This wild QB market. The former Bucs quarterback had a ton to say about today's game. We looked back at his '99 NFCCG, too. Here are the words from our chat.
Good morning, readers.
Here’s the written transcript from our recent conversation with former NFL quarterback Shaun King.
Full video and audio is right here, icymi.
Thank you for joining our community here at Go Long:
What are you up to today?
King: Life is good, man. Taking care of the kids, trying to be a great father and husband looking for what’s next. So I’d love to get back and call college or NFL football games, so we’ll see if we can find a way to make that work.
Your college career, you had one of the best college football seasons ever. I didn’t realize you were the first player in D-I history to throw for more than 3,000 yards, rush for more than 500 yards. Tulane goes undefeated for the first time since 1929. You were a legend back in St. Pete. The Bucs have been watching you forever, but when you look back at your own playing career, where do you start your story?
King: I wish we had social media and NIL was in place. We missed out on so much as college athletes. One being, the compensation that these kids were getting now, I’m all for it, but it wasn’t available then. We were dead broke. We had to sneak food out of the cafeteria, so the fridge wasn’t empty in the room and then the level of celebrity that they can ascertain because of social media and the new media platforms. We didn’t have any of that. Hell, internet was relatively new in ‘95 when I got to Tulane. The coverage and the exposure that sports gets is so much bigger now than it was. But the memories are, we got it the organic way. We worked our butt off. We fought through adversity. When faced with difficult situations, we stood and fought. We didn’t fly. We didn’t transfer. We didn’t go to an easier situation. We said, “You know what? We’re going to turn this situation into a good one.” And when you look back on what we were able to do with Tulane, that’s what I remember the most. It took a lot of hard work. A lot of long days. A lot of that results that weren’t favorable for us to get to 12-0 and get to throwing for 3,600 and rushing for almost 700. It took a lot to get there. So you appreciate it more.
I get torn on NIL because college athletes should be paid. … But it’s such a wild west now. It is almost rare to see a star player go through some hard times, be told they’re not good enough, be told that they’ve got to work harder and then stick it out because there’s always going to be another coach. Boosters. Whoever’s dangling the money, there’s always going to be another opportunity out there now for the Gen Z college football player. I don’t know what the middle ground is, but how much damage is being done to 20-, 21-year-old college football players?
King: I just think something that’s so simple to fix is complex because of stupidity. The NIL and transfer portal situation is very easy to fix. First of all, high school athletes should not be eligible for NIL. Now you eliminate all the BS and recruiting kids out of high school. The high school kid has not generated any money for a university that he has not actually participated in an event for yet. NIL means “name, image, likeness.” So if I’m University of Texas or University of Georgia or Alabama and we’re recruiting Tyler Dunne. Until you get here and perform, you have not actually generated income for us. You’ve generated income for On3 or Rivals or some of these other platforms that do high school recruiting. But for the actual university, you haven’t made a dollar for it. I don’t think high school kids should be eligible for NIL.
The other fix is — if you transfer — you’re ineligible for NIL at your new destination. You implement those two things and I think it fixes a lot of the problems. It keeps schools from getting crazy with high school kids who haven’t proved that they're deserving and it keeps guys from snatching up smaller-school players because they can offer more compensation. I don’t think that’s right. If a kid goes to Tulane and Willie Fritz and now Coach Sumrall have developed him into an all-conference player and he’s getting $150,000 through their collective, I don’t think it's right for Georgia to be able to say, “We’ll give you $750,000 if you come here. It's not because I don’t want the kid to get to 750K. It’s because I think it’s still intercollegiate athletics. It’s not professional sports. The kid’s not actually a free agent. Tulane has poured resources into that kid that Georgia wasn’t willing to out of high school. At least in my eyes, that’s where the medium is. That’s where the middle ground is. Kids that go to college and they’ve proven that they are worthy of NIL, they should get it. But also it prevents some of this: “I got more money than you, so I’m going to take your players that you've developed.” I think that’s wrong.
You were coaching at USF (from 2016- ‘19). Can you imagine being a college football coach right now where you’re working every day with somebody trying to kind of turn a boy into a man and teach life skills? Now, some of these coaches are thinking, “Oh, if I swear at this kid, if I am a little too harsh, is he going to just run the other direction?” The fight or flight.
King: Which is what we talked about with Tulane and our success. And for those that say that they do it in the NFL, they don’t do it in the NFL. Every team in the NFL works on the same budget. It’s called a salary cap, and guys are under contract and they’re only eligible to be a free agent in certain periods in their career. So in college, everybody’s not on the same salary cap. So that’s why I think if you transfer, you shouldn’t be eligible for NIL.
Coming out of Tulane, the Bucs obviously know who you are. You’re a high school phenom. You do your thing at Tulane. You grew up in St. Pete and grew up a Bucs fan, right? You were a fan of probably Steve Young and those terrible Bucs teams back in the day?
King: Doug Williams, Vinny Testaverde. I didn’t know a guy could be colorblind until Testaverde. My dad was a Baptist minister. I used to sneak out of church when the Bucs played on the road so that I could watch him play because I grew up in the blackout rule for home games. So if the team hadn’t sold out by Thursday, the week of the game, the game was blacked out locally on TV. So the only time the Bucs were on TV was on the road. So I would sneak out of church and make sure I could watch ‘em play. But I’ll tell you this, a lot of people might not know this. Me and Anthony McFarland, “Booger,” who does a great job at ESPN now, we were the Bucs first- and second-round picks. We got to know that staff during Senior Bowl. We were both on the Senior Bowl team that was coached by Tony Dungy and his staff. So that’s where I think we really made our biggest impression.
What a team though to be drafted by. That defense is set up with several Hall of Famers now.
King: I think there were five Hall of Famers in the building. Warren Sapp, Derrick Brooks, John Lynch, Ronde Barber, Tony Dungy.
And you were kind of the missing piece on that ‘99 roster where Trent Dilfer goes down, you come into that crazy stadium atmosphere against the Seahawks. Lead a win. And it’s easy to just kind of think, “Oh, Shaun King was just this placeholder dinkin’ and dunkin.’” But you had games against the Vikings and the Lions where you were kind of throwing it all over the place. You beat Green Bay. You get to the playoffs. That was an all-time group that easily could have won it all.
King: Yeah, it’s kind of like a gift and the curse. I’ll never be able to duplicate some of the emotions that I had playing in that stadium and people having the Burger King hats on, and I grew up rooting for this team and everybody just really being in my corner and wanting me to succeed. But there’s a part of me that thinks like — and life isn’t fair — but it is really unfair to have a rookie quarterback drafted into a never-get-to-be-a-rookie-quarterback situation. I never got to be a young quarterback from the time Trent got hurt in Seattle, as you mentioned, I think they were still indoors. From the time I took that snap, we were expected to win the Super Bowl or be in the Super Bowl. My entirety in Tampa. It was never, “Hey, it doesn’t matter. We just want you to go out and play. We want to get a lot of reps. We want to get better as the season goes on. Take some chances. Don’t be afraid to make a mistake.” I never got to experience any of those situations. It was, “If you don’t screw the game up, we probably win.” Yeah, you’re excited to be out there, but you love to have a chance to go out and really just play like most rookies. And the NFL hadn’t really adjusted to what college was becoming from a scheme standpoint. This was before the spread offense. This is when everybody was under center. You still use the tight end and the fullback. Most teams. So this isn’t the NFL people see now. This is that old school version of the National Football League, also where you could hit the damn quarterback where it’s a badge of honor to get knocked down 15 times a game and get up
The personalities on that team, too.
King: A lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. We went 10-6 (in 2000). I threw 18 touchdowns, 13 picks. I think I ran for five. And I got benched. As a second-year player. Most guys, if they do that in their second year, hell, they’re getting an extension these days. So it’s bittersweet. It’s great that I play for the team I love. It’s great that I got to play with a bunch of great players, but you think as a quarterback, if you would’ve went in a situation where you could actually be a young quarterback, would your career have been different?
It is a blessing because you do have all these Hall of Famers and you are one controversial call away from being in the damn Super Bowl. I’ve never thought of it like that where God, I mean if you were just with a not-so-great team and you were able to ease in and the expectations were lower, maybe the trajectory is different?
King: If I got to be Brooks, Sapp, Lynch or Ronde, they were terrible when they got there as rookies. The team, the Bucs were awful in the first three, four years of those guys’ careers! Even Trent Dilfer, who they drafted in the first round. The Bucs were terrible. So when I got there, when I was drafted, it was after all of those reps that all those guys had gotten and the Bucs went from terrible to perennial Super Bowl contender.
But then this is where Tim Couch says, “Shut the hell up Shaun King. I was with these expansion Cleveland Browns getting my brains beat in. I would’ve loved to have had all these Hall of Famers.
King: Hey Tim, I’ll trade you. I’ll take that No. 1 pick money back then. You can have the 50th pick money.
That NFC Championship game, we’ll never see again. We’ll never see 6-5 into the fourth quarter. What was that evening really like against the Rams?
King: There was a play in the game and I think this — people think it was the Bert Emanuel catch — and I really, really still have an issue with the NFL because that was blatantly a catch. But there was another play in the game. We had a crucial third down, I think it was mid-fourth quarter and I still to this day think I snapped the ball before the play clock went out and we had a little crossing route by Bert and I threw the ball to Bert and there was nobody to the side because the three receivers had cleared it out. It would’ve been first and 10 inside of their 15 and the game was still 6-5. This was before Kurt Warner threw the touchdown to Ricky Proehl. I thought we got that ball snapped on time. They said it was delay of game, but it was a couple plays where you look back, it was like, “Damn, it was so close. I mean, so close.” We had an opportunity early in the game. I think Steve White got an interception off of Kurt Warner and you go back and you look at the sequence of play calls that we decided to call and it was like, “Ah, we probably…” Little things like that. I thought there was one chance in the red zone where I thought I saw pressure that happened a little quicker than it happened on film and I had a chance to hit Bert down the middle, which would've been a touchdown. So it’s just little things that you look back on that the average viewer or the fan wouldn’t know, and you’re like, “Damn, we missed some opportunities.” I thought we should have been up more than 6-5.
And still after that touchdown to Ricky Proehl, there’s 4:50 seconds left and you take over at your 23. Mike Alstott runs for nine, runs for eight. And then you complete passes for eight to Dave Moore, four to Warrick Dunn, nine to Jacquez Green. You’re sacked. Then, you hit Karl Williams for 22. So you get down to the Rams 22-yard line, you get sacked again, and then it’s 51 seconds left, second and 23, and you hit Bert Emanuel for a completion. About 12 yards. So it would’ve been a manageable third down. You can even take two shots at the end zone if you want. Your recollection of that? And you say you’re still pissed off. It’s been a couple decades, so this one must really hurt.
King: For me, I was pissed off when it happened. But in my mind I use it as fuel, like “Oh yeah, we’re going to show ‘em next year. We’re going to get back, we’re going to do it again.” Then you finish playing and you’re like, “Damn, that was Hardy Nickerson and Donnie Abraham and some of these other guys. Paul Gruber, and some of these other guys that you grow to really have great relationships with. That was their chance to win a championship. And because of contracts or age, they’re not on the Bucs team that ultimately won the Super Bowl. That’s the hard part. I thought we were the better team that day, and for whatever reason, I would’ve wanted to see if we could pick up what, nine yards? It would’ve been third and 9. Something like that. Let us decide it on the field.
Why? I mean, did they think the ball was rolling as it hit the ground?
King: Remember, this was in the infancy of replay. We didn’t even know the play was getting reviewed. If you notice, we called timeout after the catch, and so we had a play called and everything. We were in the huddle. I had called the play. The first time I knew the play was being reviewed was when we broke the huddle and the ref was on the ball and said, “Hold on.” I looked to the sideline again and Tony was pointing up.
It would’ve been the year before in 1998 — Jerry Rice fumbled in the Wild Card game. No review. It didn’t exist. Vinny Testaverde had a controversial touchdown against Seattle that year, too. This is why it was put in. A call that decides who goes to the Super Bowl.
King: They, they misused it. There’s not a person alive when they see that replay — I don’t care how old you are, what the rules were when you played — that would say that’s an incomplete pass.
At that time, it’s not like officials were unbelievably strict with “What is a catch?” It’s almost become bastardized in the 20 to 25 years since. Watching today, it’s clearly a catch.
King: It’s really to me, the most egregious call in NFL history. Because it took away something. It took something that had happened away. And it’s the one where you look back on — even the Tuck Rule and all of that — you’ll get people that look at that and kind of have their own interpretation. There’s nobody alive that looks at that play and says, “That’s not a catch.”
What’s the next play? If he catches that, in your head, you’re thinking: “Alright, he caught it. This is what we going to do next.”
King: We were actually going to run an isolation play to Warrick Dunn because we figured that either they were going to play man and it was going to be strong pressure or weak pressure. So we were going to isolate Warrick and if it was strong side, he would’ve been matched up on the defensive end. If it was coming from the weak side, it would’ve been the safety and we liked those matchups either way. So who knows?
The most egregious call in NFL history?
King: In my opinion, absolutely. Shit, if we’d have made a Super Bowl, I could have held out that offseason and got paid!
It left an imprint on the NFL because people still talk about it to this day: Bert Emanuel caught it.
King: And I’m invisible in the whole thing. It’s not the King-to-Emanuel play. It’s the Bert Emanuel Catch. They did a whole series, a 30-minute special on the thing, and I didn’t even get interviewed. I’m like, “Well, damn. Was I even on the field?!” I wasn’t even interviewed. Nobody called me. Nobody reached out. I’m like, “Geez!”
You won a Super Bowl. You’re a back-up to Brad Johnson, but you did get to that game, win it. I imagine that’s a feather in the cap but it would’ve been a little more special as the starting quarterback.
King: Just slightly. And you know what, shout out to Brad Johnson. Brad’s a awesome dude. We have a great relationship. But that 5 (years) for 25 (million) is supposed to be mine. I still am upset with Rich McKay and Bucs management.
Where did you screw up? The next year, you win 10 games.
King: We lost at Philly, first round of playoffs, and that offseason is when they signed Brad. Five years, 25 million. We went 9-7 and lost at Philly again. And then that’s when they fired Coach Dungy. And what a lot of people don’t understand is, we changed coordinators every year as well. So when I look back and we talk about just reminiscing, not only were we picked to win the Super Bowl, I had a new coordinator all my first, what, four years in Tampa. Mike Shula was the first year. Then, they fired Mike on the way to the Pro Bowl. They hired Les Steckel, they fired Les Steckel. They promoted Clyde Christensen, the coordinator. Then, they fired the whole staff. Then, Jon Gruden came in the fourth year. So, it was four different systems my first four years down there in Tampa.
There’s got to be a Warren Sapp story. Was he every bit as crazy as we can imagine off the field.
King: So here’s what’s crazy about how I view everything. No matter what anyone tells me, I only can go based on how you treated me and me. And me and Warren are besties. Me and Warren have never had a day where we were mad at each other. We’ve always got along. Of course, I hear a lot of stories that maybe he doesn’t treat everybody like that. But me and Warren Sapp are tight like that. I’ve never ever seen any of those behaviors that people talk about.
He just strikes me as somebody you want on your side, right?
King: Absolutely. Best, most gifted big man I've ever been around. Literally when I got there, Warren is about 6-2, 6-3? At that point, he was easily 330. We go play pick-up basketball, and he gets the ball on the block and drop steps and flushes on a dude. And this is at like 330. He’s the most athletic big guy I’ve ever seen.
You were on that ‘99 team when he decided to get a little block on Chad Clifton.
King: That was glorious. That was a part of the game back then.
Mike Sherman didn’t like it.
King: Yeah, Mike Sherman, get out of here. Get out of Dodge. That was a big rivalry back then. The Bucs were in the NFC Central when I got drafted. It was us, Green Bay, Minnesota, Detroit, Chicago. I’ll tell you a funny story. And it wasn’t as big of a deal then as it is now, but the NFL would release their schedules early. Now, it’s like a big deal. It’s covered by every sports outlet. The only thing we cared about back then: “Where are we on the road in December?” The NFL was going to have the Bucs go to Green Bay in Chicago in December. It never failed.
That season finale in 2000 was frigid at Lambeau.
King: Minus-11.
They got you in OT. I don’t know how that would've affected your seeding in the playoffs.
King: So watch this. So, it’s my last regular-season game as a starter. They beat us in overtime on a field goal. Grammatica had a chance to win the game at the end. It was under 10 seconds, I think. And he missed the kick. If we win that game, we win the NFC Central. We get a bye the first round of the playoffs and the second round is a home game. We lose that game. We’re wild card on the road at Philly the following week.
The trajectory of your career, your life probably changes if Martin Grammatica makes that kick.
King: Hey, the ball didn’t bounce my way. I’m not going to blame Martin. Martin is a great kicker. He won a lot of games for us. Great dude. But you wish you would’ve made that one. It would’ve been interesting to see how it would’ve been different if we get a bye and we get a home game. Somebody’s got to come down there. It’s still hot in Tampa in January. It would’ve been interesting to see how it would’ve been different.
So how closely are you studying quarterbacks today?
King: Very. I watch all of them.
What are your thoughts on the quarterback market? It is like 55 mill a year if you’re any good right now. It’s a good time to be up for a contract, and it’s only going to keep going north.
King: I think it speaks to the health of the National Football League. If you look at the evaluations of franchises themselves and how they’ve grown over the years. I think the Glazers purchased the Bucs in ‘95 for $152 million. (Note: Was $192 million) Trevor Lawrence just got more than that in guaranteed money. There’s not a lot of people walking this planet that can evaluate the quarterback position at a high level. And because of that, teams have gotten out of paying players and they’ve paid the position. So now the quarterback position gets paid kind of regardless of true level of ability and talent and it’s just, “OK, that's the quarterback. We’ve got to take care of him.” Whereas the running back position they, again, don’t pay the player, they pay the position. But that’s been devalued and no matter how good the running back is — no matter how transcendent the talent is — that position has been minimized. So the way it’s going now, whoever’s next is going to get slightly more than the last guy that did his deal. Doesn’t matter if he's better. It’s the leverage that the agent and the player at that position has. I saw an article about the NFL potentially creating a separate cap for just the quarterback position and maybe they have to do that. I’m happy for the guys. I’m glad they're getting paid. A little frustrated that we missed this window of just teams giving away money because that’s what they’re doing. These guys? C’mon, man. Trevor Lawrence was a great player at Clemson. Come on. He hasn’t done anything in the NFL that would say he’s worth $200 million on the field. But at the end of the day, value is what somebody’s willing to pay you. So I’m not mad at Trevor or Justin Herbert or Joe Burrow or Lamar Jackson or Deshaun Watson or any of these guys. This is what the market is.
If you’re a quarterback in those negotiations, if you’re the quarterback’s agent, you’re just telling his team: “OK, try something else. Good luck.” I think the fear of purgatory is what’s driving this right now. The Jags know purgatory. They’ve lived it.
King: I think Gardner Minshew got two years, $20 million to quarterback the Raiders. Like $10 million a year now is nothing. They’re just throwing that around like, “Oh yeah. He’s average. We’ll give him 10. Brad Johnson, my replacement in Tampa got five years, $25 million. The top 25 quarterbacks right now are making more than $25 million per year. That was Brad’s whole deal for five years.
If you’ve got a quarterback that you know is top 12, let’s say, you have to just pay it because teams have tried to do other stuff. Like last year, the Atlanta Falcons try to build this superteam around a C-minus quarterback and just tell Desmond Ridder not to screw up. Well, he screwed up. The Washington Commanders tried to roll with Sam Howell. If you’re not going to pay Jared Goff, Tua Tagovailoa, Jordan Love, Trevor Lawrence, any of these quarterbacks, are you really going to try to navigate a new path toward victory in the NFL? I think you just have to keep paying them. Then there’s that middle tier, maybe the Baker Mayfield in Tampa, Geno Smith, Daniel Jones. There is a middle class, I suppose.
King: What you’re saying is accurate outside of Sam Howell. I mean comparing Sam Howell and Desmond Ridder is unfair. I think Sam Howell had a really good year on a really bad team. Maybe the worst offensive line in football is what the Commanders trotted out. And I thought he deserved an opportunity to be a starting quarterback again. I think he’s talented. Desmond Ridder was overdrafted. When I was in South Florida, we played against him. I never walked off the field saying or thinking that that was going to be an NFL quarterback. That’s a bad draft pick by the Falcons. I don’t think their plan was necessarily flawed. I think their choice of who to facilitate the plan was where the flaw happened. And we’ll see. Sam Howell was in the same draft. If you put Sam Howell on that Falcons team, they’re a much better team. They’re a playoff team.
Not for nothing, but Joe Theismann in the middle of the season told us that Sam Howell could be the future.
King: I’m high on Sam. I think he’s really good. I think he got a bad rap. I thought he got caught in an impossible situation: a lame-duck coach who’s obviously getting fired, a one-year offensive coordinator who’s kind of been the poster boy for a lot of vitriol because of his inability to get a head job. Then you heard comments about the players saying Bieniemy was being too hard. Then you got the team being sold. So you got ownership changeover happening. That was an impossible situation for a young player like that. Go back and check him out. Watch some of the highlights. I thought he did a lot of really good stuff. He’s in Seattle now, so we’ll see if he gets a chance.
He threw the most passes in the NFL last year, 612. Just a shade under 4,000 yards, 21 touchdowns, league-high 21 picks. To your point, he was sacked 65 times. I’m sure some of that’s on him, but…
King: They were terrible on the O-Line. And again, your Baker Mayfields and your Geno Smiths, there are 32 teams. There aren’t 32 Hall of Fame quarterbacks that are still of playing age that are walking the face of this planet. Somebody’s going to have a diminished talent at that position, but I think the draft is where teams mess up. I’m telling you now, Drake Maye is not a first-round draft.
Why is that?
King: He’s not. He’s a developmental quarterback. He comes from a great family. If given time to mature and grow into being a more confident, consistent player, he can be OK. But what did you bypass to take a developmental quarterback at three? He’s not going to beat out Jacoby Brissett. And the way I look at draft value, if I’m drafting something in the top five — no offense to Jacoby Brissett — that can’t beat out Jacoby Brissett, then I’m overdrafting that player.
What would you have done if you’re Eliot Wolf at the three spot then?
King: Traded down, traded out. I know Minnesota, Denver, there were some teams that were dying to get up to that spot. And the only reason I did that is because Jacoby’s better. Now, if my coordinator was comfortable with drafting a left-handed quarterback, I would’ve taken Penix. I think Penix is the real deal. I think he’s box office. But knowing football how I do, you have to have a coordinator that’s comfortable with that because a lot of these guys have only coordinated from an orthodox prism. All their quarterbacks have been right-handed. So to bring a lefty in, you’ve got to have some mental maneuverability themselves because in crucial situations that bootleg has to be the opposite of what it’s always been. That rollout has to be left instead of right. There’s some things where guys get a little uncomfortable with that. But I thought trading down would've been great value.
Why do you love Penix? That was the story of the draft. Especially with who took him.
King: I recruited Penix. I’ve known him for a while. I was a quarterbacks coach at South Florida and this is when I found out about coordinators being uncomfortable. Our coordinator at the time, Sterling Gilbert, did not want a left-handed quarterback. And I was yelling from every platform we had available at the Lee Roy Selma Center, “This is the best player in the state of Florida.” That’s how highly I thought of Penix coming out of Tampa Bay Tech and my head coach was on board, but my OC wasn’t. And ultimately, we lost out to Indiana. I’ve known how talented that kid is. I watched him play basketball. I watched him play football for three years. And the only reason that he wasn’t more well-known at Indiana is because he kept getting injured. He tore his ACL twice. I think he had a shoulder. So he spent a lot of time rehabbing. But what he did at Washington didn’t surprise me. He can really spin the ball.
And I thought that was a great pick by Atlanta because I think when it’s all said and done, he’s worthy of where he was selected. It’s sort of like Green Bay took Aaron Rodgers, but they had Brett Favre. Kansas City drafted Patrick Mahomes, but they had Alex Smith. Sometimes at that position, if you got what you think is an elite player, you have to take him because they’re hard to find. And supply and demand doesn’t always match up in the National Football League. And that’s where I think a lot of organizations get it wrong. Because you have a deficiency. That year’s draft may not provide the right level of talent to fill that deficiency.
You’re the Pittsburgh Steelers. I screamed from the rafters: That kid is not a first-round quarterback. It took it, what, 17 years in college to have a good season and they used a first-round pick on him and they still got to go sign Russell Wilson and trade for Justin Fields because Kenny Pickett wasn’t the answer. They could have drafted another first-round starting player at that pick and been better in another area. So it is what it is. I don’t mean to rant and ramble, but I’m passionate about the quarterbacks. I think NFL teams should hire somebody like me just to be the final say on personnel. I think I have a gift at it — I’ve been right a whole lot — and they’ll stop drafting the Zach Wilsons of the World two and the Trey Lances at three. Making these colossal errors.
We’re under the impression that all of these coaches and general managers know exactly what they’re doing when they make picks. Kyle Shanahan is revered as maybe the brightest offensive mind in football, and he traded three first-round picks for the rights to Trey Lance, one of the worst trades in NFL history.
King: Which made no sense. Simply because it was a situation like mine, and they knew it. I was drafted in the second round with the 50th pick, and Trent Dilfer had a lot of good and bad games at Tampa, but it seemed like he was headed to having more good than bad. So I was drafted in the second round, but I really was drafted to be Trent’s understudy for a couple years and then instead of giving Trent another big deal, they would’ve moved on to me. Whereas the Niners were going to be the Super Bowl favorites no matter who they selected in that draft. And they traded up and drafted a kid that had really only played one year of college football. A raw quarterback that if anybody needed to go somewhere and it was “We don’t care about the results,” it was Trey Lance. I mean he was never going to work in a “We’re Super Bowl contending”-type of environment. He just was too raw and inexperienced.
I was all in because of Shanahan and the work he could do with just all of these physical and athletic gifts. He pivoted fairly quickly and said, “Nope, Mr. Irrelevant, Brock Purdy.”
King: He got lucky. He did. John Lynch is my guy. Love John. They got lucky. Because if they thought that highly of Purdy, they’d have took him in the fourth round, third round. If they really knew what they were getting with Brock Purdy, they would not have drafted him in the seventh. He’d have been a San Francisco 49er way before then. Now there probably were some things about Brock they liked. They were like, “Well, it’s late now. Let’s bring him in. See if he can manifest those things.” But they’ll tell you — if they’re being honest — they didn’t think he would be able to play with the consistency. Because hell, he’s playing better with the Niners than he did at Iowa State if I’m being honest.
On Penix, what was the trait that popped to you? Why did you love him so much out of high school?
King: He was everything: smart, accurate, great arm talent, athletic. The teammates loved them. The coaching staff loved them. The administration loved them. Because I was the kind of recruiter, I’m going to the school. I’m walking through the hallways. I’m asking the cafeteria person because I want to know what we’re bringing into the program. And I don’t think you know unless you get the opinions of a lot of people and then you have to measure that against what personally of said person and then come up with what you think is the best conclusion. So people loved him. Humble kid. Great family. Shout out to Mr. And Mrs. Penix. They’ve got another son that's coming up too that I think he’s going to be pretty darn good. I’ve always seen greatness in that kid.
How does this play out in Atlanta? You give Kirk Cousins the big contract. You draft Michael Penix. It’s not exactly like the Rodgers/Love thing. Penix is older than Love was coming in, but I love that the team’s trying this. You should draft quarterbacks when you don’t need one, but how does this specific situation play out?
King: I think it works out great. I really do. Kirk’s not a spring chicken. Kirk’s played a lot of football. For the most part, he stayed injury free, but now he is coming off of an Achilles. So for a guy that’s already immobile in a lot of ways, tearing your Achilles at his age doesn’t help. But what you did and what you needed in Atlanta was a real pro on the offensive side of the ball. That’s the one thing you don’t get when Desmond Ridder’s your starting quarterback. He doesn’t know. He doesn’t know how to really be a pro. He doesn’t know how to organize it during the week with the receivers, the running backs when we’re off the grid — making sure everybody’s on the same page. “What are we doing in red zone? What are we thinking third and short, two minute, what do I really like?” So Kirk’s the guy that brings all that to Atlanta. So even if he’s not 100 percent what he was before the Achilles, you know what you’re getting for the younger players on how to prepare, how to schedule your week, make football a priority. If you’ve got other stuff to do, it needs to be in this window. If it doesn’t fit in that window, then you don’t do it. He’s going to bring all of that. And he’s a darn good player. And if he’s everything that he was before, guess what? He’s probably going to play two or three years of that deal and then he’ll be two, three years older. Then you’ll have Penix, who’s on a five-year rookie deal who will take over and have a year or two to prove that he deserves what probably will be a $100 million dollars per year quarterback deal at that point. On the other hand, if Kirk’s not fully what he was before or he is not ready to play at a high level initially, you’ve got a much older rookie coming in because of Covid in Michael Penix. I think Michael Penix is 24 if I’m not mistaken. So he’s played through adversity. He’s been on the big stage, so he’s probably more ready to step in and help you guys become a playoff team than maybe a guy that’s only 20 years old coming out of college and he still got Kirk there to help him manage his schedule during the season on how to be a real pro.
The only risk is the day-to-day dynamic. The quarterback room. Kirk Cousins was pissed when they drafted Penix — and maybe he’s fine now. You’re banking on him being a pro’s pro and is he going to play worse because there’s a young quarterback in the room? No. But you do wonder how that’s going to play out behind the scenes.
King: It’ll be seamless for two reasons. I know Penix personally, and he’s a humble kid. He’s not a guy that’s going to walk around, and if he has a better practice than Kirk locker-room politic: “I should be playing.” That’s not him. It’s not his personality. Penix is a kid that wants to fish in his spare time. He is one of those guys. He’s real smooth, low key, doesn’t get caught up in the bright lights. And another reason, and people don’t really know this because I don’t think his first stint as a head coach that he really got a fair shape. But Raheem Morris is a true leader of men. He’s in that Mike Tomlin category — not as refined and, of course, not as accomplished as Tomlin. But his mannerisms and the way that his mind processes good and bad is under the Mike Tomlin tree. So he’ll be able to get everybody focused on the ultimate big-picture goal, which is team success.
Mike has a snippet where I think it was Pouncey is coming off the field and he tells Pouncey, “What you did was wrong.” And Pouncey’s about to talk back. And he says, “Listen, we’re chasing a goal that’s bigger than you.” And that’s how Raheem can communicate where you’re not “MF this, MF that” to the player. But you’re strict, you’re stern, you’re straightforward, and you’re also very clear and the player receives that because that’s who you are all the time. And so Raheem has those same characteristics. I think he’s going to do a great job there in Atlanta.
For a team to take a leap of faith like this, the owner’s got to be on-board. That’s been the problem: Owners just aren’t going to sign off on drafting a quarterback when “we don’t need a quarterback.” This is good for football that a team is doing something like this.
King: What you said is correct, but I think we also need to contextualize why what you said is correct. The organizations that aren’t good, that is a hundred percent applicable. The owner is too involved. None of these owners got rich playing football. They were masters at something completely different. So just because you’ve created enough wealth to purchase a football team doesn’t make you an expert at football. It makes you an expert at business. If you hire a GM to do its job — and the GM hires the director of personnel and the head coach and the GM spend all this time watching players — why in the hell do we have to get the owner who knows nothing about football to sign off on anything we’re about to do in the draft. Now, in free agency because he’s writing those big checks, OK. I get it. I see why you run that by him. But the draft is slotted. Depending on where you’re at, you know exactly what that pick and selection costs. So I think the owners are too meddlesome. Arthur Blank is a philanthropist. Warrick Dunn is a minority owner of the Falcons. Another one of my good friends, Will Packer just got a minority stake in the Falcons. He’s done great things at Home Depot. He’s beloved in the city of Atlanta and the surrounding areas. But come on man. You put Arthur in the room, you’re asking to draw an under defense? How do you attack Cover 4? I’m sure he is very limited.
I think he lets Terry Fontenot and Raheem Morris do their thing.
King: And I recruited Terry Fontenot. He is a Tulane guy. Shout out to the Green Wave alum. Happy for Terry. Look at Carolina. Mr. Tepper thinks because he's brilliant in one space in life that those same tactics work in this space and they just don’t. The NFL’s about picking and hiring the right people and then being patient and getting out of the way and letting them do their job.
So many of these billionaires think, “OK, I bought the damn team. I am going to be heavily involved.” So they don't have that restraint. If you want to win, you need restraint.
King: Go ahead and be involved. Be involved on getting us better marketing deals or enhancing the stadium or upgrading the practice facility or being the first NFL team to have their own private jet. You want to get involved then get involved. Go get one of those Emirates Airlines air buses with the two levels. Get involved like that. But stay out of the personnel side.
And lastly, you have the New York Jets, who are convincing themselves they can win with Aaron Rodgers. I guess he is blowing off mandatory practices to do drugs? An ayahuasca retreat I suppose, is where Aaron went. How do you make sense of the Jets and that situation?
King: So listen, Aaron Rodgers is one of the most talented throwers of the football we’ve ever seen. You can’t argue with that on any level. He’s just brilliant when it comes to throwing the ball. In my opinion, he’s become the one of the most selfish and self-centered quarterbacks of my generation. Here’s what I mean by that. Robert Saleh is obviously on the hot seat. Obviously. What more could you do to undermine the soft footing that he’s already on than to miss the mandatory minicamp? That schedule has been out since the Jets finished their season last year. Guys got emailed that schedule right after the last game. So it’s not like he hasn’t known when mandatory minicamp is. I can understand, “I got something to do. OTA’s week two, I’m going to have to miss three of the OTAs. I’ll be there for the fourth day, or I got to come, then I got to leave.” But being so selfish that you can’t reschedule that other thing to be at mandatory minicamp where there’s going to be a lot of media in New York, and you know you’re going to put your head coach, your organization in a difficult spot because now they got to answer questions about why you aren’t here. You don’t think Mike Williams needs those reps with you coming over from the Chargers? All of the stuff you like to do at the line of scrimmage from a signal standpoint, you don’t think these guys need those reps? It was selfish of him. He has known when this date was.
This is who Aaron Rodgers is. He’s been selfish, narcissistic, self-centered, surrounded by yes men. You say no to him, you’re out forever. For a long time. But he’s always been talented enough to justify the BS. If you’re the Packers, you’ll put up with it because he’s winning you four MVPs. . … Finally they let go and the Jets were stupid enough to just sell their souls to this guy. That’s why they’re the Jets. That’s why you are historically one of the worst franchises in all professional sports. You actually believed Aaron Rodgers. They deserve everything.
King: I’m OK with it. I’m here for it. It’s entertainment. I’m here to watch it. I just hate it for guys like Garrett Wilson. Garrett Wilson deserves better. Because of Aaron, he had to go through the flimflammery last year and all the changing the quarterbacks because they overdrafted Zach Wilson. So many things that have happened there.
Breece Hall, who’s an outstanding player. Those guys deserve better. They deserve your all, Aaron. We know you got the big bag three times already. We know you’re a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but those are young players. They deserve your all. As premier players in that league, you’re supposed to be an example for the younger guys. You’re supposed to show those guys this league flourishes because we did things the right way. Here’s how we did ‘em. You guys make sure that as you guys are going through your careers, that you hold up these same standards. Not like, “Well, I had something that's important to me.” What is football? Because I guarantee one thing: If it wasn't for football, Rodgers wouldn’t have one-quarter of anything that he has right now. This is where I get frustrated with athletes sometimes that have gotten to the big bag. Everything that you have that’s available to you in a lot of ways right now is because of this. So now don’t push this to the side and make it a non-priority. Show it some respect.
The Jets aren’t going to speak up to him, are they? At this point, he’s the Assistant GM. He’s the coach. He’s everything.
King: He’s everything. How did Nathaniel Hackett stay off the chopping board last year? Because he’s Aaron's boy! They were on terrible offense, and not one time did you hear an announcer, anybody say “Hackett’s doing a bad job of scheming.” It was “The quarterback’s bad. Aaron’s not here.” Come on, man. Because he’s Aaron's boy.
They had such a good offseason, too. The Jets actually signed some good veterans. Fortified the line — Tyron Smith. The defense is loaded. It’s a shame. You did the trade. You get Aaron Rodgers, he says he’s committed. He says he doesn’t want distractions. And then he does this.
King: And by the way, Jets y’all need to pay Haason Reddick already. Double digit sacks in the last four years. I’m not talking like 10, 11. I’m talking about teens two of those years. The guy can rush the quarterback. Pay the guy.
Somebody should just hire Shaun King, like you said.
King: Hey, I’m available. I need a job. You got a job for me?
Hey, I sat down with Terry Fontenot for a story at Go Long. You’ve got the connection with Terry. Maybe he can find a position for you.
King: Absolutely. That sounds good to me.
Clips from the show below.
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I had no idea about his college experiences.
And I will forever think of Warren Sapp as “chickenshit” after that hit. By rule it was legal. It was also cowardly. The lack of remorse then, and even more so now, makes me think less of people who condone it.
Big picture strategic thinking into the talent evaluation and business issues facing every GM. Sean King is one of the smartest minds in the game. Superb in-depth interview.