'No sense of urgency:' Brice Butler dissects everything Dallas Cowboys, Jerry Jones & Dak Prescott

What a strange place. But what's life really like in Big D? The written transcript of our hour-plus conversation with the former NFL wide receiver is right here.

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Good morning, all.

This week’s episode of the Go Long Pod is LIVE and Brice Butler brings it.

GL Pod: Brice Butler unlocks the door to Jerry's World and these maddening Dallas Cowboys

Prefer words? Our conversation is below. We BS’d about fatherhood for six minutes to kick off the pod. (Brice has No. 3 on the way.) For transcription purposes, I’ll jump right into the football talk because the former NFL wide receiver has a lot to say.

Loved Butler’s take on the cutthroat nature of pro football. It was illuminating looking back to his own career — the highs, the lows, the mental side of the game.

And then of course, we delve into everything Jerry Jones, Dak Prescott and the Dallas Cowboys.

Will it ever change in Big D?

(Checking this out within your email? As a reminder, click the link at the bottom to read the Q&A in full.)

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Dunne: Let’s start with your football career. I want to ask about the Cowboys of today because you've got some great insight into everything happening down there with that team. But your career, Brice, you lasted a long time for a seventh round pick. What was your secret?

Butler: I learned how to control what I could control in college. I went to Southern Cal. Pete Carroll recruited me. Halfway through my time there, he leaves. Lane Kiffin comes in. When a new regime comes in, everything is shuffled. A guy that might've been starting last year, he might not even be on the team the next year. Stuff like that happens. The way Carroll had it ran at the time was like, if you weren’t just this crazy monster early as a freshman, you probably were going to redshirt or you played a little bit as a true freshman. And then depending on who was in front of you, that upperclassmen would play two years and then by the time it’s your sophomore or junior year, it was your time.

And if you look at the quarterbacks at that era, it was like that for everybody there. Matt Leinart was like that. John David Booty right after it was like that. He had to wait for Matt to leave, then he took over. Then after that, Mark Sanchez was waiting on his opportunity. Then when John David left, Mark had two more years left. But Mark ended up only playing one and going to the pros. Then because of that reason, the cycle got broke with Matt Barkley and Matt Barkley played all his four years there. Sanchez had left. But I say all that to say, when Lane Kiffin came in, I was slotted. It was my time. I was a reshirt sophomore. Carroll had me in his office with Jeremy Bates and was like, “Hey, get ready. We’re going to give you 90 catches next year. It’s time.”

I’m happy. I’m excited. Then he leaves and then Lane Kiffin comes in. I did decently well, but I guess not well enough to outplay a young kid with the name of Robert Woods as a true freshman. And then I go from being the starting X to the starting F, which was the third receiver. I was pissed off. I’m 20 years old. I’m not handling it correctly. I’m pissed at the whole world. How do I lose my job to this dude that is an 18 year old? I’ve been here waiting on my time, whoopty whoop. So then it was two more years of grinding and battling. And what I basically picked up from there was you can only control what you can control. And I'm glad it happened in college. I hated it while I was there. But Robert would catch 12 balls in the game. So obviously when we come back to practice Monday and Tuesday, he’s sore. So now I’m taking all his reps because Coach is trying to get him ready for Saturday.

And I used to be pissed off about it. But when I got to the pros, what I realized was that basically prepared me for my time in the NFL. If you’re the third or fourth receiver and Dez Bryant’s the No. 1 receiver and Dez has a little ankle injury or he’s sore, he’s not going to take all the reps in practice. I’m going to have to take the reps. And I think by that time I was able to do that, knowing what the job entailed. It wasn’t like I was pissed off or “Ah, Dez doesn’t practice!” or “Larry Fitzgerald’s not practicing!” or “Rod Streater’s not practicing!” This is what you have to do. And guess what? If Dez gets hurt in the game, I’ve got to go in and do what I got to do and they’re going to expect me to at least do something similar or better.

I think that’s why I lasted longer than most seventh-rounders or even guys drafted higher than me. But I got hurt in 2018. I ruptured my plantar fascia. I’m still dealing with that crap today. It changed everything. I was a speed guy and I couldn’t really push. The speed’s not really speed the way it was. And basically when I got down to Miami in 2019, my love for the game was just gone. I was like, “I don’t feel like I need to have to prove that I’m better than this rookie.” I lost it. It was gone. When it got to, “I’m tired of doing this,” I was done. So 2019 was my last camp. I was hobbling on my foot and I just remember the whole time I was like, “Man, I don’t need to do this anymore.” And I never felt that way ever. I was hoping to play in 2019, but I was like, “This probably might be my last year.” Unless I go for 1,000 yards, which I wasn’t expecting at that time, that’s not happening.

Dunne: How sad is that? When you’re stricken with the emotion of “Ugh. I really don’t want to play anymore?”

Butler: Yeah, it’s sad. Honestly, I think it’s more sad when you’re out. So obviously I was going through those feelings during my last camp in 2019 and Miami under Brian Flores. And he was kicking our tail, too. That’s another story. So after I got released, you think the mindset of what happens in football is going to happen. So what I mean by that is I got released, I was like, “Cool, I’ll have workouts. I’ll land somewhere. I’m a veteran.” Teams typically like veterans, especially if they get cut Week 1. They’re not guaranteed. So they can let you go at any point if they want. So in my mind I was like, “Yeah, I got cut, but I’ll be somewhere at least by October.” And I had a workout shortly after with the Raiders. It was maybe two weeks after I got released, and then that was it dog.

Dunne: That phone’s not ringing.

Butler: It’s like, “Dang.” I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this skit that floated around a few years ago, but you’re on the Internet looking at the transactions. You’re on TV seeing who’s getting picked up and you’re like, “Him?! Him?! What? Are you kidding me?” You’re literally just freakin’ traumatizing and stressing yourself out more and more because you’re like, “How am I not getting called? I was with him. I played way more than that guy when we were on the team together.” I didn’t really sit with it that long. I just got right into what I’m doing now then. So I really haven’t fully dealt with it all. I went and spoke to the Raiders organization, some people that came last year, and I got kind of choked up when I was talking about football stuff and I was like, “Oh shoot, I haven’t dealt with this yet. This is weird. Tears.”

Dunne: You got emotional talking about it?

Butler: Yeah, I was talking about my time in the league and how it ended and I kind of started getting choked up and I was kind of like, “Whoa.” It shocked me. I was like, “What? I haven’t even cried about not being on a team. So why am I about to cry now talking to these people I don’t know.” It is sad, man. When you think about it, you always say you’re “more than an athlete” or “football is not my identity,” but that really means nothing until you’re not playing anymore. And then you really have to figure out, “Whoa, football was my identity. Literally my whole year was scheduled and planned out since I’ve been a kid.” Season ends in December or January, then you take a month off and then you start training again, and then you have spring practice, and then you’re back with the team, and then you’re working out with the team in the summer and then training camp and then the season. That was my life from eight until I was 29. So that was my identity. And for most people who say it’s not? Dog, it is. You don’t know until you’re done. So yeah, emotions for sure. Sad for sure. Definitely.

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Dunne: Plus, when you’re running a 4.3 at your pro day and that’s what gets you into the NFL, gets you an opportunity — speed, speed, speed — and then you have that plantar fascia and you lose that speed, that’d be maddening. Like you said, it lingered. You never got that back. So you’re also feeling like somebody else toward the end.

Butler: Yeah, it was interesting. I mean, I could still run. But I couldn’t lean if that makes sense. So I never really got the confidence back in my foot to really — if I had man-to-man coverage — to get off the line and really lean by him and really go. Because you’re on your toes pushing down on that area a lot. And I never really got that. Once I kind of got going, I could go. But all that ties in together. My thing was I’m 6-3, 215 and I’m faster than you, and you’re like 5-10, 200 maybe. Before I could get off the line and then leave you. To now I’m getting off the line and you’re running with me. That was weird.

And then also, I was getting older, so you kind of tie it all together, but for me it was predominantly my foot. The thing that used to piss me off — and it was true to a degree — but I remember doing a workout. I think with the Texans. They wanted me to run a 40, and I was like, “I’m not running a 40.” I was like, “I’m 28, I’ve been in the league. I’m not running a 40. Turn on the tape. I’ve been playing for five years at this point.” I didn’t run the 40 and I did my workout. Did well. And then they were like, “It looks like you lost a step.” And I remember looking at the guy in the eye and being like, “You’ve never seen me before in person, so how do you know I’ve lost a step? There’s no DB out here.” There’s no DB out here that’s guarding me that I can run away from. Then obviously my foot wasn’t healthy, so I was kind of like, “Well, shoot. He probably has some validity to that.” But I just remember being pissed that he said it.

Dunne: Who was that?

Butler: I don’t remember his name, but it was whoever the scout or whoever that was running our Texans workout and I had to talk to after when they told me that they weren’t going to sign anybody or whatever.

Dunne: What a blunt thing to say though. Right to your face: You’re not fast anymore.

Butler: That’s how it is, man. I think that’s a good thing in football. Most of the time you’re going to hear either the honest truth or it’s going to be a boldface lie and they’re just getting you out the door — it’s cutthroat regardless. And I think that helps us transition into the real world to a degree because we understand at any time, whatever we have going can be done. Now, it doesn’t help when you're dealing with co-workers and you’re telling some girl, or even some dude, “Hey, you're not doing a good job. You’re shitty. You’re not doing this well, you’re not doing that well. You need to step your shit up.” And then you look at ‘em and then the next day HR department’s hitting you up or they’re trying to tell you you’re a piece of shit. I will say that is tough. Our whole lives — especially dudes my age and older — everything has been tough. There’s been no mental health. There was none of that in my era. There was no mental health epidemic/crisis that was going on. So there was no “Oh, I’m sad.” Or, “Something happened in my family.” There was none of that. So that’s what it is. I remember when the Cardinals let me go, that was the first time I ever got cut in anything. And I think, Adrian Wilson, he was one of the main scouts when I was there. An old safety. And I’m 28, which is not old. But I guess old in football.

And so when they let me go, he was the one who told me. It wasn’t Steve Keim. That’s why a lot of people had problems with Steve Keim. He was a GM, but couldn’t tell you that they were letting me go. But he was like, “We’re going younger.” And I was like, “I’m 28, I’m not old. What are you talking about?” And he was just like, “We’re going younger.” And I was like, “Whatever that means. Alright.” And then that was Christian Kirk’s rookie season. Who else? Trent Sherfield. They didn’t do wrong. They had a lot of guys that are still playing. And that was like what seven, eight years, nine years ago.

Dunne: Oh, Trent Sherfield has stories about those Cardinals and Steve Keim.

Butler: Shoot, I forgot who they cut me for. Oh, Chad Williams. I guarantee you don’t even know who that is. So he was a third-round pick the year before I got there from Grambling and checked all the boxes. He was like 6-2, 205. Could run. But he couldn’t catch for nothing. And you could see it in practice. Like, he couldn’t catch. And I remember they were just pushing him ahead, pushing him ahead. I’m like, “Yo, the best lineup that we have, that we’re throwing out there, is me, Larry, and Christian Kirk. Every time it’s us three, you can’t stop us. But they want this other kid to play. And I remember they cut me, and then I think the first three or four weeks of the season — I was following closely. Chad had a crazy amount of targets. I think in the first three games he had 30 something targets and had three catches. And I was like, “That’s what I got cut for.”

Dunne: Your point on the cutthroat nature of the businesses is awesome. Mental health is important. There’s a lot of good there for sure. But imagine how productive we’d be as a society if the laws of professional football applied to other industries. And if you did a shitty job, you were told point blank, “you’re doing a shitty job,” and they got somebody else in there. Feelings have overtaken productivity in countless industries.

Butler: 100 percent. I think we obviously work a little bit more efficiently if you didn’t have to worry about the backlash of how you told somebody they weren’t living up to what they’re supposed to do. Nowadays, we live in a world where you have to be politically correct by default or you’re going to be seen as some type of toxic monster that can’t deal with people. And when you really think about the most successful people in this world, they’re cutthroat. You’re either doing the job or you’re not. Regardless of whoever’s listening likes this guy or not, Elon Musk is that. If you’re not doing the job, you’re out of there. Or he’s going to tell you. Or you’re going to know. He’s not going to sugarcoat it. He’s not one of those guys to where he’s like, “Oh yeah, we’re cool.” No. You said you were going to do this job from June to July? You’re not even close and it’s May? You’re out of here. So yeah, I think it would be better. I think people would have to take more accountability.

If you get cut, sometimes it has nothing to do with you, right? In football, there’s times where they’re like, “Hey, we would love to have you, but the numbers don’t work out.” That’s basically how I got to Dallas. Honestly. I was on the active roster. Two defensive linemen go down Game 1, and then they were telling me, “Hey, we’re releasing you. Hopefully you’ll clear waivers and we’ll be able to bring you back for practice squad. We don’t think that’s going to happen though. You’re young. You’ve been making plays.” And then later that day, the Cowboys traded for me. Because they couldn’t get me off waiver. So they did whatever they had to do to get me there.

Dunne: Have you seen that help you today? That mentality, are you able to apply that to whatever business endeavors you're getting into?

Butler: Yeah. I think football, especially if you’re a guy that when I got to the higher levels, I wasn’t the star. So in high school, I was a guy. Couldn’t do no wrong. Drop a ball, you don’t care. Whatever. I’ll get seven more targets today. When I got to college, it started off good early, but then coaching change happened and then it went to if the quarterback tried to hit me — even if I was open and Matt threw the ball out of bounds and I couldn’t even catch it — if we didn’t connect, Lane was like, “Nope, you’re wasting targets. We’re throwing it to Robert Woods. We’re throwing it to Marquis Lee. That’s how it was. So it got to the point where it was like, “Dang, I have to make every play count. If I get an opportunity on a ball, I’ve got to dive. If it’s within reach, I have to dive.” That’s why I have a lot of diving catches in my career. You don’t know if you’re going to get another shot. They’re not throwing you slants. They’re throwing you go balls. You have to make sure you come up with this ball. I think it helped me because it made me accountable to what I have to do.

I will say I’ve been trying to learn how to talk to people better. I’ve always been very blunt. Black and white. That’s how I’ve always been. That doesn’t work when you’re dealing with a girl in the golf industry that said she was going to do something and didn’t do it, or y’all said, y’all were going to work together and y’all are working together, but she’s beating a piece of crap.

Dunne: But you’re in the right. What’s her defense?

Butler: You are. But in today’s society, you have to know how to work around certain stuff or at least convey your message in a better way. I think that sucks.

Dunne: So you got into trouble?

Butler: Oh yeah. That happens a lot. I mean, it happens all the time. I mean, it happens inside my household now saying something that I feel like I should be able to say this and you should understand it. I shouldn’t have to tap your emotions. You should just understand this is the bull crap that’s going on, but you can’t.

I still hang out with guys that I could do that with. And I structure my friend groups around guys that are like football guys or guys that are in the space or guys that played a little bit growing up to where I can say certain things and not have to worry about it. And the normal Puma or Cobra, I’m an ambassador for them. When we had meetings and stuff, I’ve got to make sure I say the right stuff. Or I might lose my… if I say something to the wrong person. So that’s just how it is, how it goes.

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Dunne: I want to go back. When we first met, it would’ve been the 2016 season. Dak Prescott is taking the league by storm. You’re the No. 1 seed. You’re thinking Super Bowl. You’ve got a role on this team. We were talking about Dak. What was that season like? And what was it like to see this rookie step in for an injured Tony Romo and rally everybody around him?

Butler: Yeah, it was special. I wasn’t there at this point, but if you think about what was going on the years prior, the Cowboys were looking like a team that should be in the Super Bowl. Or at least contending for one every year. You have the “Dez caught it” situation. Where if I had to guess, I would think they go and beat Seattle and go to the Super Bowl. They beat them early in the year. You would think they had a chance to beat ‘em. And then the following year, I get there in ‘15 and Tony goes down, and then we went through Brandon Weeden, Matt Cassel, Kellen Moore. We were 4-12. Which was crazy. We still had a shot to make it to the playoffs because our division was so bad that year.

And then the following year, Tony’s healthy. We still have Kellen Moore, and then we draft this guy from Mississippi State that had their team ranked No. 1 for some time during his time in the SEC. I still remember it was yesterday, him coming in and just being excited. Jittery. Me having to tell him, “Hey man, you can slow down the call in the huddle. Don’t try to just spit it out. You’re good. You’re the quarterback. You’ve got command. Just slow it down.” I remember having those conversations. I remember looking at him — and I used to DJ.

And I remember we were at a place called Concrete Cowboy. I think we all there, a lot of us were there, and at this time, Zeke’s the No. 1 pick, so he’s like The Guy. But we were all there. I remember Dak and Kavon Frazier were sitting right next to each other off to the side of our little table. And I looked at him and I was just like, “All this is a facade. Don't worry about none of this. All this is not real. But I will say this, if y’all ball out, y’all going to be the life of the party. Y’all will be the life of the party.” And then fast forward five months later, Dak was the life of the party because he was The Guy. He was the starting quarterback for the Dallas Cowboys. Yeah, man, that was a great year because obviously when Tony went down in that third preseason game, it was just like, “Dang. Tony’s out. Kellen Moore just got hurt in the first week of training camp. So it was like, “We don’t know what we have in Dak.” When Kellen got hurt, Dak started taking all the one team reps because Tony didn’t really practice. He was old. He was older. His body was fragile, so he didn’t practice that much. So Dak was practicing a lot. He was looking good, but you still don’t know until… you know what I'm saying? And so I think we found out Dak was for real when Tony went out unexpectedly in that third preseason game, and it was like a third and 12 and he goes in there. I was with him. I’m starting that game. And I remember, I spent a lot of time with Dak before that, just talking to him about his story.

And so obviously his story was every time the guy in front of him got hurt, he took over. And so I remember being on the sideline. Timeout after Tony got hurt. Getting the call. It was Scott Linehan. Me and him were getting the call, and then we started running in the huddle together. And I just remember telling him, “Hey, this is literally your story repeating itself. Take advantage.” He was like, “I got it.” That’s all I said to him: “This is literally your story. This is what you told me happens on every level and it happened. This is crazy, but just do your thing.” And he was like, “I got it.” And then went in there on third and 12, hit Cole Beasley on a nice little choice route. And I remember everybody was like, “OK, we might have something here.” And then it doesn't surprise me he is where he is now. It doesn’t at all. So I’m happy for him. I hope he keeps doing his thing.

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Dunne: In the moment, you said that and he didn’t even mess a beat: “Oh yeah, I got it.”

Butler: That was our relationship. So if you ever talk to him about me, he would tell you that. I remember when I was, I think it was his second year after the season. We didn’t make the playoffs. I’m in the locker room talking to him about, “Hey, you see the difference? Last year we were 13-3. We made it. It looked like we were going to the Super Bowl. This year, we were flirting with it. We’re 9-7. We’re not going to the playoffs. This is how it is. But you have to be that guy like, “Hey, we’re a playoff team.” You have to be that standard. We would have those types of conversations. And even when I was leaving, he was calling me on the phone a lot, just like, “Hey man, I need you here. You’re my guy. It would be great.” And I was just so freaking pissed that I wasn’t playing the way I wanted to. I just wanted to leave. In hindsight, I wish I would’ve stayed. Like, dog. the freaking star quarterback is not begging you, but he’s like, “Hey, I need you here. You’re my guy.” And for whatever dumb reason, I wasn’t listening to that. I should have listened to that. Now, mind you, my foot was still messed up. I was going to hurt my foot regardless. But who knows if I would’ve stayed there? And Sanjay (Lal), me and him didn’t see eye to eye when I came back there in 2018 at all. So who knows, maybe we would’ve had a better rapport if I would’ve been with him earlier in the spring.

Back to that time when we were at that club talking, I don’t think anybody would’ve thought Zeke’s situation would’ve went down so fast and Dak’s situation would’ve been the way it was.

Dunne: So he’s just there at the bar. Nobody really knows him.

Butler: Yeah. And we were all together. It was a lot of us there. You’ve been to a club or a bar before where they have sections where you can stay. And we had a section, it was like me, Lucky, Terrance Williams, Devin Street, all of us. We had a table. We were hanging out and then they were kind of off to the side — not like they weren’t partying or being cast-outs. It was just like, we’ve all been in this spot where it’s like, “I’m not really the guy. These girls don’t know me. They know them because they’ve been here.” It is like that. I remember my first time going out with the guys in Dallas. I didn’t know nobody. So when you’re out, it is not like you’re walking around like “Yeah.” You’re just kind of walking around, “OK, alright, this is my teammate, this is what he's like when he’s out.” You’re learning people. And then I remember just telling them, “Man, don’t worry about none of this.” And now Dak is probably avoiding being in public, period. Especially in Dallas.

Dunne: That first year you’re an Aaron Rodgers-to-Jared Cook miracle away from hosting the NFC Championship Game. That’s as close as Dak has come. And he’s been to the playoffs five times in nine seasons. He’s been more than solid. He’s been a star at times. In 2023, he’s a legit MVP candidate. He finished second in the voting. He threw for 4,500 yards, 36 touchdowns. So we’ve seen these moments from him: Yeah, he is in this upper echelon. You can win a Super Bowl with Dak Prescott. But it’s been almost a decade. I feel like the whole world’s having the Dak Prescott debate in this dead period of the NFL calendar. What do you make of his career and can he get Dallas to that next level? It’s always about that with the Cowboys. Can he get there or is Dak who he is at this point?

Butler: You know what, that’s so tough to answer. It sounds like a loaded question almost. Can Dak take the team to the Super Bowl? I do think he can take a team to the Super Bowl. I think he’s a leader enough to do so. Just how I thought Tony Romo was a great leader. I think there’s just so much with the Cowboys organization that goes into what happens and what product gets put on that field. It almost sounds like — especially when you’re a football guy that’s been in Dallas and you covered the team — it almost seems disingenuous to say that a quarterback is the reason why the team can’t make it.

Dunne: I totally agree. It’s different there.

Butler: When people look at me and go, “Dak is not good enough to take his team to the Super Bowl,” I’m like, “What quarterback in the NFL can take the Cowboys to the Super Bowl? Tell me.” I almost say the same thing. Even if Pat Mahomes is the Dallas Cowboys quarterback and say Dak was in Kansas City. I’d say Dak goes to the Super Bowl at least one time and Pat doesn’t. I can honestly say that. Because it’s different dog. When you look at the organizations, I think we probably had these conversations, it’s bigger than football in Dallas.

You’re in a situation to where if you don’t go to the Super Bowl? That star is still going to bring in 6 billion a year or whatever they bring in and they’re not really tripping. Whereas other organizations, a lot of these owners out the way who let the business be the business, it’s like if you don’t make it, there’s a problem. If you don’t make it, your job is on the line. It is not like, “Oh, what does the Chiefs logo look like?” Or, “What does the Eagles logo look like in these stores or across the world globally.” It’s more so, “We have to win a Super Bowl. We have to go to a Super Bowl”

If you look at the Eagles the last 10 years, do they have better football teams than the Cowboys? I would say no. If you think about it, 2016. We were 13-3. We lost to Crosby, Aaron Rodgers, Jared Cook, North Gwinnett High. I’m a Gwinnett County guy. But then the following year, the Eagles have the same exact record. They’re 13-3. They beat us the last year in the last game. We beat them the last game. And they go change their quarterback and then win the Super Bowl. For them, it was more of like it’s all or nothing. They went and got it done. And it is like that from top to bottom. And then Doug Pederson started slipping. Their quarterback from North Dakota State, he doesn’t pan out. So they get rid of all them. “Y’all are done. We’re tired of this. Y’all are out of here.” And then they bring in another coach. They bring in all these players, they make all the acquisitions that need they make, they go, they lose one to the Chiefs. They made it, but they lost one to the Chiefs. Then they go back the following year, they looked just as good. And then I think I would like to say Jalen Hurts was hurt and their team just kind of wasn’t right. They were like 10-6, but they just didn’t look right. And then they went to the playoffs. They went down to Tampa and Baker doted them up.

And then you hear the way that they were talking. Like the players and the coaches and all that. They were not happy that their season ended that way. They were pissed and it was almost like, “Yo, if Sirianni doesn’t get the job done this year, they’re gone. They’re out of there.” And guess what? They do what they were doing last couple years, but then they seal the deal. They go get their revenge on the Chiefs and they seal the deal.

You could see there’s an urgency there with Philly. Even with the fans. There’s an urgency like, “Yo, we have to do it now or it’s a rap.” Honest to God, honest to God, you could tell me if you think opposite. I don’t think there was an urgency within the Cowboys organization with the head coach and anything that’s been going on the last three or four years. McCarthy was just like, “You know what? Y’all don’t want to extend me. Alright, I'm out.” It wasn’t like, “You ain’t got the job done. You’re gone, bucko!” It was like, “We will assign you to another one-year or two-year small deal.” And he was just like, “No, I’m not doing that. You’re wasting my time. I won 12 games a year, you’re wasting my time.”

Which is fair. But there’s no sense of urgency. Whereas I can almost guarantee you if Andy Reid and Patty Mahomes the next two to three years start going 7-10, there’s going to be “We’re getting rid of Pat Mahomes and we’re getting rid of Andy Reid” talks. It’s going to happen and it’s not going to just be media-driven. It’s going to be driven from the organization. That’s what I’m trying to say. When it comes to the Cowboys, a lot of the talk is media driven, right? Like Stephen A’s laughing at the Cowboys and Ryan Clark is trying to tee off on the Cowboys. Shannon Sharpe is teeing off on the Cowboys. That’s media-driven pressure. There’s no pressure within the organization. With other organizations, there’s pressure there. So I know I’m going all the way around the block here to answer this question about Dak, but yeah, I do believe Dak is a Super Bowl-talent quarterback. He can go to the Super Bowl.

I think Dak can win it. I just think it's unfair because he’s in Dallas dog and I honestly believe if he were drafted to any other team — unless he went to New England right as Tom was exiting — there would be no conversation about, “Oh, Dak can’t take his team to the Super Bowl.” They’re not talking about Trevor Lawrence like that.

Dunne: I really thought Dak was going to play hardball a moment there and get to free agency for all of this, for all the above. Because you’re absolutely right, Brice. I’ve talked to people in the organization, we’ve written about it and they say it’s a total circus. Football is an afterthought. You were a player in that building where literal stadium tours are walking by you like you are a circus animal. People are gawking at you day to day taking pictures.

Butler: Right.

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Dunne: Entertainment and football are all blurred there at The Star by design. This is the richest franchise in all of sports. Throw European soccer in there, everything. Golden State Warriors. So, you’re 100 percent right. Winning isn’t that important. It’s just not Jerry Jones and Stephen Jones, who by the way have conflicting visions for how to build this thing also. But there was a story this front office exec told me where Mike McCarthy was the coach and you’ve got a quick 10 minutes to get lunch before you go to another meeting, and he’s standing in line and there’s 12, 15 people there. Half of ‘em are in the marketing department. They’re all yucking it up for an hour and your head’s spinning and he’s looking around, like “What is this? What the hell is going on here?” He was fed up. (And he said he wouldn’t have taken the job if he knew it was like this.) I feel for any coach, any quarterback, any left tackle, any cornerback who was there and sincerely wants to win. Because that’s not the objective of the Dallas Cowboys, which that’s not hyperbolic to say. You lived it, you saw it.

Butler: Yeah, it’s not. And then obviously when you’re there as a player, you’re trying to win, but certain things happen that you’re like, “Why did that decision get made? Why is that guy playing over this guy?”

Dunne: What were some of those then?

Butler: The biggest one when I got there was when Ron Leary got benched for La’el Collins. LC was a dog. He had a great career. LC was a good player coming out of LSU and all that, but at the time we had the best line in the league for years prior. And it was that unit. It was Travis Frederick, Tyron Smith, Ron Leary, Doug Free and Zack Martin. Zack was young. That was the squad. And then LC was basically a first rounder that went later because of whateve happened in his college situation.

They're like, “Well, if he plays, all these guys are first rounders.” Well, Ron Leary wasn’t the first round pick. He was a late-round guy and that was my first year. Ron’s pissed and then the players are pissed, too. Like, “Why is Ron not playing? He knows everything. He won’t make these mistakes that this guy’s making.” It was just stuff like that man where you have the best rushing attack in the league and the best line in the league and you dismantle it just because you want all these guys to be big dogs: 6 foot 6 guys. There’s countless other things, too. Obviously I can’t speak to what’s been happening in the last few years, especially what’s been happening in playoffs.

The team just looks terrible when it came down to the playoffs. Especially when it came down to time management. They’re always going to blame the coach for time management, which they should. I remember they blamed Dak a lot for it. But what I think people don’t understand is a lot of that stuff is habitual. What I mean by that is we never had clock management issues when Jason Garrett was there because the whole team knew what we do or what we were supposed to do in certain scenarios because he always talked about it and he always quizzed you. Even if you were a defensive back and we were on our Friday or Saturday walkthroughs and we were going through time management, he might call on you and be like, “Hey, we have 15 seconds left on the clock. What are we trying to do?” And you better know the answer.

So we all knew that. So as a former player that played there, when McCarthy got there, and obviously they had those few games I guess against the Niners or whatever where the clock management was looking awful. That would never happen with Jason. The fourth downs when we got to get the ball punted or whatever and we need to call the timeout and McCarthy’s not calling timeout and the clock’s just getting ran out and then we don’t end up having enough time, that doesn’t happen with Jason. And it’s because it’s built in habits. It’s built-in practicing situations, and my guess — this is just a guess — because those things were happening a lot with them, they weren’t working on it.

And then you can blame both the quarterback and the head coach because Mike McCarthy had Aaron Rodgers, we all know what type of guy Aaron Rodgers is. He’s a type A guy. He’s going to do his own thing. He doesn’t care. He does not care. He’s not politically correct. He’s not going to be politically correct. The dude’s in his 40s. He’s not married. He don’t got no kids. He don’t even mess with his family. He’s basically the OnlyFans model, but a quarterback. He gives no fucks about anybody. So he’s a guy that if he feels like he needs to do something to make it happen on the field, he’s going to do it. So the clock’s going down? I’m calling time out. I’m not waiting on my coach to call time out. If I’m going to change the play, I’m going to change the play. I’m not going to sit here and expect my coach to change the play. You have guys that are like that.

Everybody’s not like that. Every quarterback’s not like that. Kirk Cousins is not like that. When I was with Dak, he was not like that. My guess is he’s still kind of not like that now. Which is not a problem. Pat Mahomes seems like a guy that’s more like Aaron Rodgers. He’s going to cuss out Andy Reid. If he doesn’t like what’s going on, he’s going to cuss Andy out and it's going to be over in 10 seconds and they’re going to do what they got to do. Everybody’s not like that. Trevor Lawrence doesn’t seem like he like that. I doubt Jayden Daniels is like that. He doesn’t seem like he’s like that. So I think when it comes to those scenarios, you can blame a little bit on both. Whereas I think McCarthy’s expecting my quarterback to handle some of these situations and then quarterback is used to the coach doing it, and then it doesn’t get done.

Dunne: Also you’ve got Jerry Jones central to the entire operation. My eyes were open when somebody told the story of a draft. Between picks, out of nowhere, Jerry Jones shares an unbelievably inappropriate sexual escapade of his to all. His daughter is sitting right there and nobody really bats an eye. I wrote that and I’m thinking, “Oh man, this might create a ripple or two.” Nobody cared. This is just life down there. Everybody sees it, everybody lives it. He’s the one in charge. I remember you telling me the story in the locker room where Jason Garrett is giving a speech and Jerry would brush him to the side.

Butler: Yeah, “let me talk real quick.”

Dunne: As a player, you’re seeing your coach emasculated like that in front of everybody. That creates a weird dynamic.

Butler: That was weird for me, dude. When I first got there, that was so weird for me. Remember Pete Carroll was my coach. Then I had Lane Kiffin, who’s proven to be a good coach. Then I had Rocky Long at San Diego State and he wasn’t no pushover slouch — at all. Out of all the coaches I’ve ever had, I was more scared of Rocky than anybody. Rocky seemed like a guy that could throw a right hook, he was old and he’d land it and knock you out if you pushed him to it. He was that kind of guy. I love Rocky. Shout out to my guy, but I had all these alpha coaches in their own, and I’m saying Jason Garrett wasn’t, but Jerry Jones was just so different.

I remember my first game was 2015, September, second week of the season, we played Philly. After the game. I'm seeing all these cameras and microphones in the middle of the locker room and I'm like, “Who’s that?” And they’re like, “Jerry’s doing the interview.” I was like, “Jerry Jones?” They’re like, “Yeah.” I was like, “He’s doing an interview? For what?” And they were like, “Bro, that’s how it goes.” And I was like, “What? Why are they interviewing the owner?” Now, mind you, I’ve been watching ESPN my whole damn life. I’ve been seeing it my whole damn life. I’ve been seeing Jerry Jones getting interviewed a lot. I’ve seen it. I actually hated the Cowboys because I was like, “Why are they always talked about? They’re not good. Why are we still talking about them?”

And I remember it being such a big shock that first game, seeing that he was pulling an interview. Why are they talking to him? Why do they care to talk to him and why does he want to talk to them? Let the coach talk to them. Tony Romo’s hurt. Let the coach talk. But you get used to it. And Jerry’s a great guy. Jerry knows everybody by name. He’ll come up to you. He’ll shake with you. I guarantee you right now, and I should do this. If I call Jerry and was like, “Hey man, I want to learn a little bit more about business real estate. Can you point me in the right direction?” I guarantee you he’ll give me recommendations. That’s the type of guy he is. So matter of fact, I need to do that. I need to write a note down.

So you just kind get used to it. And then like I said, you have a moment like how I had with “Undisputed” and Fox when I left the first time, or with DeMarcus Lawrence leaves and they’ll say, “I didn’t think I could ever win one there.” And it’s not that you’re faking it or you didn’t try when you played. Over time, you just start to realize this is what’s going on here. It doesn’t really feel like they’re trying to win. They would rather me put on my jersey and go to this optical camera charity event thing than me focusing on (football).

Dunne: Ron Wolf, Hall of Fame GM for the Green Bay Packers. His teams were bashing their head against the Cowboys in the 90s for a while. But he always said, “our inherent advantage is living in Green Bay, Wisconsin with no owner.” You’re drafted by the Packers. You’re traded the Packers. It’s football. You don’t have these commercial engagements and speaking engagements and promo here, promo there. It’s just about the football. That matters.

Butler: It does matter. And I know most of those players hate living up there, but it actually helps a lot of players stay focused. And even dudes that are married or have a girlfriend, typically, you'll see, and I know a lot of ‘em. Girlfriends will be up there with them for the season. And the main reason is, is because there’s no nightlife. You can’t go out and do something. You aren’t going to find that there unless you want a girl that rides on the John Deere tractor, which most of those guys don’t. Hey, I got a girl that I like, I need to make up with her because I need somebody to be here with me during the season. So it keeps them focused on what you’ve got to be focused on, man. Hey, you see Green Bay is pretty much relatively good every year, and they’ve been that way for a long time.

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Dunne: But that's where it gets really maddening with the Cowboys because the talent is there. I’m with you on Dak. You’ve got CeeDee Lamb, Micah Parsons. It’s even down to the team-building part of it and knowing when to sign these guys. The Dak contract should have been done way before it was. Same thing with CeeDee Lamb, same thing with Micah Parsons. Stephen Jones doesn’t want to get caught up in dead money and just wants his personnel department to go bottom-feeding in free agency. And then you’ve got Jerry Jones, who’s a riverboat gambler. He’d take any risk. Two totally different ideologies are clashing in the middle of all this. That’s how a team doesn’t get to the NFC Championship game since 1995. Now, they’re the only team in the NFC that hasn’t been that far since then.

Butler: It’s crazy.

Dunne: And if Jerry was a distant owner, if he let football people make football decisions? If Will McClay just had all the power?

Butler: They need to give him the respect deserves, but he’s in the family business. That’s how it goes, man. At the end of the day, if I had a major corporation and family business, I would want my kids to run it. This sucks. It’s like Succession that show. Even if my kids don’t really show the resolve to keep it while I have somebody here that I know can do it, I want my son or my daughter to be the one to do it. I can’t be mad at him for that. I get it. I totally get it. It’s a family business. You got it to where it got to continue to allow it to be a family business. If you have to make up a new freaking title to give somebody a little bit more rein, but he’s just not going to be the “GM,” I would do that. I would let Will McClay be that guy. He's really good. He’s been there. He’s been good. But I’m sure his situation’s good. He’ll never talk about it in public or whatever. But I'm sure my dog Will's situation is solid because Will is going to make sure he’s straight. So I’m sure his situation is better than most people think. But from the outside looking in, when you think of what’s going on, it's like, “Why don’t you just let him take over?” I'm sure he's straight.

Dunne: They’ve drafted well. The timing’s just all of whack when it’s time to pay these guys. At the end of the day, everyone — even Stephen — must defer to Jerry. … I don’t see how Dallas wins this year, or any time soon, regardless of what talent they have or who’s quarterback. I feel for Cowboy fans out there, believe it or not.

Butler: It’s going to be tough sledding. But they might surprise us. They might not. Who knows? We’ll see.

Dunne: You’re going to keep it real, which is appreciated. I imagine there’s a lot of former players who lived it and feel the same way I’d imagine. They’re shaking their heads.

Butler: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. If you could be in those group chats that some of us are in, you’ll know.

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